Talk:Zanza
Zanza is not Pure Evil anymore Zanza is not Pure Evil anymore. He has many moral agency issues, confirmed by Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Keep him Fragmental and Amoral please.Teengohanrocks (talk) 19:40, December 1, 2017 (UTC) I haven't played Xenoblade 2 myself yet, but based on what you said on Valkerone's wall, it sounds like that Klaus '''is the one that's not evil, while '''Zanza '''is the pure evil being. And if that's the case, then Zanza is still a purely evil villain. Also, tragic or not, a villain can still be pure evil. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 20:05, December 1, 2017 (UTC) Zanza is Klaus. They are the same being. Zanza is just Klaus evil half. Think of it as a Kami and King Piccolo relationship.Teengohanrocks (talk) 20:14, December 1, 2017 (UTC) That's kind of contradicting things there. You say Zanza is Klaus, but at the same time, you say he's his evil self. You can't have both. If anything, it sounds like Klaus is the neutral being, while Zanza is the evil one. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 20:36, December 1, 2017 (UTC) Would you say the Nameless Namekian was the same person as King Piccolo or Kami? It's the exact same thing.Teengohanrocks (talk) 20:49, December 1, 2017 (UTC) Externally, they're the same being, but internally, they're different beings. Like you said, Zanza is Klaus' evil half. In other words, Zanza is the embodiment of evil, Klaus is the neutral, while the Architect is the embodiement of good. So based on that, Zanza should be considered pure evil. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 21:00, December 1, 2017 (UTC) I would like to point out, that being an evil half of a good being will typically lead you to be Amoral, and cannot count as Pure Evil anyway, unless you're Loptr where it's made clear that moral agency exists. No matter whether you consider him tragic or not, Zanza can not be Pure Evil anymore.Teengohanrocks (talk) 22:28, December 1, 2017 (UTC) Except Klaus isn't a good person, otherwise, that contradicts the idea of the Architect being Klaus' good self. Klaus is neutral between the two. You literally said that '''Zanza '''is Klaus' '''evil half. The half of him that has no morals or regrets whatsoever. So if that's the case, then Zanza '''(not '''Klaus) should be considered purely evil. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 19:43, December 2, 2017 (UTC) But being Amoral means you can't be Pure Evil, and he is amoral now. He's Made of Evil because he cannot be anything but Evil. This means he has agency issues as he cannot be a different path, and therefore cannot be considered Pure Evil by our category definition, despite literally being made out of pure evil. It's really confusing, and why I personally feel like the Pure Evil category should turn back into Complete Monster.Teengohanrocks (talk) 20:39, December 2, 2017 (UTC) Again, you're contradicting yourself here. You say he's amoral, therefore he can't be pure evil. But later on, you say that he's not only made of evil, but pure '''evil. So what is Zanza then actually? Like I said, you can't have both here, especially since you said Zanza is the evil half of Klaus. If he's suppose to be the embodimen of Klaus' evil, then he should be conisdered purely evil, while the Architect is purely good. It's like the light and dark sides of the Force in Star Wars. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 21:23, December 2, 2017 (UTC) I mean there's two different meanings for pure evil on the site. There's being made of Pure Evil, which is what Zanza is confirmed to be, and then there's the category we have which is someone being the absolute worst with absolutely no redeeming qualities. There is a massive difference between the two, and that's what I mean. He is not "The absolute worst with no redeeming qualities" because Zanza is following his nature and therefore has agency issues as of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but he is literally evil itself which is what makes him not count anymore. Teengohanrocks (talk) 21:56, December 2, 2017 (UTC) Forgot to mention, but here is a couple of cutscenes that will make you understand everything.Teengohanrocks (talk) 22:04, December 2, 2017 (UTC) But that's what Zanza is though. He's a god that wants to continuously destroy life and regenerate it in an endless cycle. He's self aware of his actions and cares little for what others have to think. And whether he's following his nature or not really is irrelevant, because either way, he's commiting all of these horrible actions that no one in the first game clearly apporves of. Also, the clips that you show here depict Klaus 'from the past, aka the being established as neutral. This isn't the evil half we're talking about. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 23:24, December 2, 2017 (UTC) At this point, I believe it's only a matter of time for this topic to be brought upon other users, because we seem to be the only ones here bouncing back and forth on it. ShockwaveDude120 (talk) 23:25, December 2, 2017 (UTC) Does cutting Zanza mean that Mumkhar and Dickson should be removed too? Neither of them isn't as heinous as Zanza, but that's mostly because they don't have as much resources. user:Kookosbanaani You see, this is exactly why I am against the name change from Complete Monster. Becuase it causes confusion like this. Also, I agree with ShockwaveDude. Zanza is driven by his ego, not by him being amoral or anything. This quote confirms that: : "What are you talking about? A Telethia is a High Entia's true form. I did not transform them. I ''returned them. They were granted intelligence on a mistaken whim, creating a primitive life form, the High Entia. They enjoyed a brief existence as sentient beings. For that, they should be grateful." Also, the fact that he gave them sentience in the first place shows that he can't ''be Made of Evil, or at least not entirely. If he was, he'd be like Aku, who's ''incapable of doing anything good even if it's for his own benefit.Joe Devaney (talk) 16:56, December 15, 2017 (UTC) Funnily enough, Aku doesn't have the Amoral category either. Which makes me wonder what that category actually means, considering Aku is Made Of Evil. Forgot to mention, but if a character is explicitely stated to be Made Of Evil in the story we don't allow them as a Complete Monster, that's always a part of the rules. If it's only implied then we keep them. Considering Zanza is explictely mentioned to be the evil half of Klaus he counts as Pure Evil as this is not a Loptr situation.Teengohanrocks (talk) 22:38, December 15, 2017 (UTC) They're reinstating him on TV Tropes since there is not enough evidence to support the claim that he is Made of Evil or a Tragic Villain. Zanza clearly has full control of himself as shown in the first Xenoblade and is nothing more than a megalomaniacal god-wannabe and nothing of the Well-Intentioned Extremist that Klaus was initially. Kookosbanaani (talk) 12:09, March 4, 2018 (UTC) You could basically say that Zanza is to the Architect as Father is to Hohenheim, and Father has been labeled as a Complete Monster on this wiki for as long as I can remember. Besides, as I said before, if Zanza was Made of Evil, he'd be incapable of doing anything good, and the fact that he gave the Telethia intelligence proves that he is. Joe Devaney (talk) 13:48, May 21, 2018 (UTC)